US To Stop TSMC, Intel From Adding Advanced Chip Fabs In China

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also add if China takes over Taiwan then must get out.

I'm pretty sure engineers would leave Taiwan for the USA and destroy all the equipment as well..

I'm pretty sure the US military would "assist" in destroying all the fab plants.

In the now, I think it is reasonable to assume that the TSMC fabs and several other important facilities are genuinely pre-mined already, and I would not be surprised to hear that Taiwan has told China about them.

The fact that this might be reasonable is a terrifying thought, but I never thought I would see an actual land war with mechanized infantry and tanks in my lifetime either.

Even without explosives, just having critical fab components erase their firmware, or even do things like pop valves and allow outside air into clean rooms can render them unusable by an attacker.

Pre-mined, probably not. Too much risk of a rogue agent getting access to detonation controls.

Prepared locations for mines in optimal locations with mines in nearby storage at the ready to be put in within 24-48 hours? Almost certainly.

I'm pretty sure engineers would leave Taiwan for the USA and destroy all the equipment as well.. I'm pretty sure the US military would "assist" in destroying all the fab plants.

I'm pretty sure engineers would leave Taiwan for the USA and destroy all the equipment as well..

I'm pretty sure the US military would "assist" in destroying all the fab plants.

The equipment in the fabrication plants will be useless without the support contracts from companies like ASML.

I'm pretty sure engineers would leave Taiwan for the USA and destroy all the equipment as well.. I'm pretty sure the US military would "assist" in destroying all the fab plants. The equipment in the fabrication plants will be useless without the support contracts from companies like ASML.

I'm pretty sure engineers would leave Taiwan for the USA and destroy all the equipment as well.. I'm pretty sure the US military would "assist" in destroying all the fab plants.

I'm pretty sure engineers would leave Taiwan for the USA and destroy all the equipment as well..

I'm pretty sure the US military would "assist" in destroying all the fab plants.

The equipment in the fabrication plants will be useless without the support contracts from companies like ASML.

In theory. Does ASML have contacts in mainland China? Any ventures with mainland partners? Are these ventures effectively training the future competition (the CCP required various ventures to do so)? Any employees from the mainland who will dutifully and patriotically transfer trade secrets to the mainland (the CCP has a program for doing so)? In any case, why leave things to theory or chance when a sufficient charge of high explosives can resolve a potential problem?

also add if China takes over Taiwan then must get out.

I think it's safe to say that this is intended for just that purpose. The U.S. has inadequate chip manufacturing, so any trade embargo against China would be catastrophic for the U.S. and most of the rest of the world. But if the U.S. builds back up its manufacturing capacity, then the U.S. would at least have the theoretical ability to force all U.S. companies to leave China if they cross that line, and to make it illegal to import any product with components made in China.

Every word of this post is misleading and false.

Citation? I mean, one of the main stated purposes for the CHIPS act was because the lack of U.S. chip manufacturing is a threat to national security. It doesn't get much more clear than that. Relying on China is risky, and the main reason it is risky is because China is an authoritarian regime that has repeatedly stated that it considers Taiwan to be part of China, which supplies a large percentage of the silicon chips bound for the United States (26% of world microchip revenue).

And in light of China's r

Sorry, accidentally clicked submit (network problems) before I could preview it. I meant to say:

And in light of China's recent posturing with respect to Taiwan, that provision was added.

This is not about free market competition,

China isn't free, so we shouldn't be free either...

I agree. There is no free market in the world. The whole world uses subsidies or various techniques. There is a pretty good free-market within America, but the whole world is not a free market.

The world is multi faceted and you can't be ignorant of games of power. If you are, you are pretty much guaranteed to lose. If the other side is playing to win and you don't even realize there is a game going on.

Countries/Region are in a game of power. Maybe it would be ideal if they were not and we all competed on equal global footing with equal laws, but that's not the reality of the world we live in. So you must play this game of power at some level. It's not a natural state of the world that the West is successful and rich and the Asians are there to service the West. That's just the game of power in life.

I'll give an example here. I come from an Indian background and there is a natural game of power that we were all aware of. It is patriachal and what not and I was never big on it, but I was aware of the game. You try and grow your community and you try and minimize the other communities. For example, you would try and have sex with girls from other communities, while trying to keep them from having sex with girls from your community. It was pretty evident even when I moved to Canada. My high school was Indian heavy, so if an outsider was caught trying to date an Indian girl, the guys would threaten the guy...

A lot of Western people were unaware of the game. To them, women are free and relationships are a choice between one man and one woman. They don't even know there is a game of community power going on. I've had to explain to them that this is very basic way of thinking for a lot of people in the world.

Again, I'm not saying I agree with this or that it isn't bad and patriarchal. I'm just explaining that it exists and it is a game being played. You can't be unaware of it. You can't simply think everyone in the world is playing by rules of individualism and the nuclear family.

In the same way, people who talk about global free trade can't pretend another game doesn't exist. One where nations seem to better themselves with games of power. You can't pretend the whole world is just individuals and companies.

In other words you can't have a free market with people looking to enslave or kill you.

so you want Russia work people in the ukraine at $0/hr in an unsafe feb plant so your stock can go up?

This serious question deserves some serious thought!

No Chinese manufacturing... No cheap cell phones - maybe people would still be actually talking face to face... No cheap monitors and televisions - maybe lots of people wouldn't be staring at a monitor all the time (not saying TV technology wouldn't have advanced, but maybe not so many productive hours lost to solo gaming - maybe more family games where everyone participated and you know - talked)... No cheap clothing - maybe stuff would last longer and c

But in reality, the fastest way to lose political power is to preside over an extra $1/gallon in gas prices.

In my estimation, the public are likely to choose aggression before belt-tightening.

Apparently is dead in America. What the fuck even are we anymore?

Absolute free market is not capitalism, but instead anarchy. Capitalism requires rules, laws, and regulations to function, otherwise generating capital to fund projects is worthless. When a country (China) ignores these laws and regulations, they should get cut off, and companies continuing to do business with them should also pay some sort of penalty. Them's the rules.

Sorry, you want US taxpayer money for building fabs? You're building them here in the US where the US taxpayer sees the jobs and economic benefits.

Don't want to build your shit in the US? Then you don't get US taxpayer funding. If that's too difficult to swallow, then don't step up to the dinner table.

It wasn't exactly a hard sell for most congress critters:

Lobbyist: "US taxpayer dollars should stay right here in the US, for US jobs and US exports. Let's make sure that happens by putting a clause in the bill."

Every single member of Congress who would like to remain in Congress: "Okay!"

Why help someone who has openly stated their plan is to hurt you? I just don't get it.

Money is the usual reason. China is willing to pay them a lot more than Taiwan is.

China's SMIC has already copied [theregister.com] TSMC's 7nm process from 4 years ago.

Chinese industry has proven very capable of copying ANY technology out there...even technology that they have stolen (industrial espionage).

Example: China can launch sections of a space station into space using their own variation on SpaceX BFR concept, but they drop their boosters wherever they want according to recent news.

At least Leon Musk can bring his boosters and even his Starship back to ground (or a ship on the ocean, for the boosters) in an area not much bigger than a football pitch.

I admit I don't know much about high speed rail, but AI hasn't had any significant advances since the "deep learning" breakthrough, 5G is only an incremental improvement over 4G (ability to handle more concurrent connections, not much improved speed) and fintech is a ponzi scheme. If China's got so much fintech dominance, why are they going through a financial crisis right now?

The reality is that China is years behind TSMC on semiconductor state-of-the-art. China's industry is also horribly dependent on i

I say we expand upon that idea and ban any corporation from opening or expanding operations in China if they want to get any sort of tax break, subsidy, or Federal contract. Actually, strengthen that for contracts - no operations in China and no Chinese "partners" if you want to do ANY business with ANY level of American government. And every other nation on the planet would do well to join in.

What a good reason for China to go all in on Russia instead of sitting on the fence.

Why even expect China to want to join the current rules based order if there aren't going to be any consistent rules?

They may as well just set up their own. Do you want another cold war? Because that's how you get one.

What a good reason for China to go all in on Russia instead of sitting on the fence.

What does "all in" mean to you?

Why even expect China to want to join the current rules based order if there aren't going to be any consistent rules?

What makes you imagine China is interested in playing by any one else's rules?

Why even expect China to want to join the current rules based order if there aren't going to be any consistent rules? What makes you imagine China is interested in playing by any one else's rules?

Why even expect China to want to join the current rules based order if there aren't going to be any consistent rules?

What makes you imagine China is interested in playing by any one else's rules?

Because it's much more profitable for them. As long as the rules are somewhat fair and China gets a seat at the table. They will do far better than flipping over that table and hoping they can gain something in the chaos.

Seems to be everyone else wants to change the rules to stop China winning the game. They are afraid if we keep the rules we have, they may no longer be the sole player on top.

30 years of growing their economy and influence under the current system. What makes you imagine China isn't intere

30 years of growing their economy and influence under the current system. What makes you imagine China isn't interested in continuing some version of that?

You mean the system where they just ignore everyone else's laws, but insist everyone follow theirs? Thanks for making my point for me.

30 years of growing their economy and influence under the current system. What makes you imagine China isn't interested in continuing some version of that? You mean the system where they just ignore everyone else's laws, but insist everyone follow theirs? Thanks for making my point for me.

30 years of growing their economy and influence under the current system. What makes you imagine China isn't interested in continuing some version of that?

You mean the system where they just ignore everyone else's laws, but insist everyone follow theirs? Thanks for making my point for me.

If that's the depth of your understanding then there isn't much else to say.

I have yet to see you ever say anything worth saying.

China has historically done whatever the fuck they wanted, while still being allowed to come to all the parties, and play all the games. China's a member of the WTO, yet WTO rules prohibit the games China plays with requiring corporations to partner with Chinese corporations in order to have a presence there. China's a member of the UN, but also carves up prisoners for organs for transplant. China willfully and flagrantly violated everyone's IP forever an

What a good reason for China to go all in on Russia instead of sitting on the fence. What does "all in" mean to you?

What a good reason for China to go all in on Russia instead of sitting on the fence.

What does "all in" mean to you?

I wouldn't expect China to do it unless faced with absolutely no other options. It would be a very bad move for them, and they know it. Everybody knows it.

I guess they would supply Russia with all the things Russia is being sanctioned from Use their very considerable manufacturing base to provide more modern weapons to Russia. Sanctions, countersanctions, shooting war, may as well try for Taiwan because they aren't getting another chance, WWIII.

It's not a very sensible choice. Back people into a corner th

The Chinese government will just pay them the same money or more, while putting policies in place to screw the US in retaliation. In fact the Chinese government has been marketing this sort of thing as an advantage of investing in China for years already. The CCP doesn't put these kinds of restrictions on your exports, so put your fabs here. Stable government, doesn't change policy every 4 years depending on how this term's big bad is.

Taiwan is probably not best pleased either, given that it increases the r

I just don't see that as likely unless whoever happens to be leading China at the time thinks its the only way to per

China is a difficult opponent. Democracies regularly change leaders and key people. The CCP can plan long term and see it through, without worrying too much about results in time for the next election, and without the next guy wanting to look tough on the US every four years.

It is viable to require that US government products must be made in the US. There's good reason to do so. But taking that so far as to say that the companies also may not have a presence in China does not sound workable. Are there any phone or computer manufacturers that do not have operations in China? Medical companies do clinical trials in China, even if they make their products elsewhere. Pretty much and major company has some operations in China.

You said " opening or expanding operations in China " So China can't open anymore Apple stores in China. Can't even build the next version of any of their products there.

" no operations in China and no Chinese "partners" if you want to do ANY business with ANY level of American government." Means Apple can no longer bid on any government contracts at any level of government. Neither can Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc. Good luck getting anything technology related.

Of course, then again, China has told Taiwan that it better make those chips in China if it doesn't want to be invaded.

Unless and until that's a war that they think they can win, they won't move. The job of opposing countries is to make sure that China never is in a position that they could expect to win such a war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

China might have been evil under Mao but it was impotent and could only cause misery for the Chinese.

Then Mao finally died and Deng Xiaoping managed to reform China. Things looked good for the world.

But then Xi climbed to the top. We are in a very different, and dangerous place. And China now has economic power to support military power.

Taiwan is defend-able. But any such war would be catastrophic. And nobody within China could stop Xi if he decides to do it.

China has been threatening invasion of Taiwan for 70+ years. It isn't happening anytime soon because it doesn't just mean a war with Taiwan - it means a war with the US and likely Japan, Australia, and other local allies. Unless and until that's a war that they think they can win, they won't move. The job of opposing countries is to make sure that China never is in a position that they could expect to win such a war.

Unless and until that's a war that they think they can win, they won't move. The job of opposing countries is to make sure that China never is in a position that they could expect to win such a war.

The United States is not going to war over Taiwan. We'll make a big show of carrier battle groups and bombers in the straits, but if China invades Taiwan, the US won't fire a shot. We'll make outraged noises, file diplomatic protests, etc, but will not join the war. Nor will Japan. And if the US doesn't fight, then neither will Australia.

You do know that an invasion of Taiwan would result in the destruction of the things that China would want from Taiwan, right?

Do you really anticipate that a very visible amphibious invasion of Taiwan wouldn't result in a mass-casualty event for China on the order of D-day losses due to the billions of dollars of weapons the US has sold them over the last several decades? Russia thought they would be done with Ukraine months ago, and that was with easy rolling across a land border and less US weapons sales

You do know that an invasion of Taiwan would result in the destruction of the things that China would want from Taiwan, right? Do you really anticipate that a very visible amphibious invasion of Taiwan wouldn't result in a mass-casualty event for China on the order of D-day losses due to the billions of dollars of weapons the US has sold them over the last several decades? Russia thought they would be done with Ukraine months ago, and that was with easy rolling across a land border and less US weapons sales in the past. Taiwan would fight like hell with modern weapons from the start. And if it looks like they were going to lose, you bet your ass that the chip fabs and other strategic assets would be the first things blown to hell by sabotage or cruise missiles on the way out.

You do know that an invasion of Taiwan would result in the destruction of the things that China would want from Taiwan, right?

Taiwan would fight like hell with modern weapons from the start. And if it looks like they were going to lose, you bet your ass that the chip fabs and other strategic assets would be the first things blown to hell by sabotage or cruise missiles on the way out.

Those fabs make stuff for the western world anyway, so it's no loss for China if they get blown up, and a major loss to the west. I guarantee to you that if they *knew* the west wouldn't take military action they'd be attacking already, even nuking Taiwan into glass pool if they couldn't get it any other way, fabs be damned.

Do you really think Russian supply and logistics is in any way comparable to China's? China has been shrinking its number of soldiers and modernizing and focusing on hardware. Russia has been doing what exactly? Stealing all the maintenance money while also relying on USSR stockpiles of weapons and munitions.

You're putting a lot of faith in "China is just as stupid as Russia" Russia can't do X. So a much bigger much more focused and competent China can't do X.

It would be a mess and a disaster. But China i

No, I don't. There's certain physical realities, such as that it takes some time to build up all the equipment and people on one side of a border in order to properly advance to the other side, unless you want to fuck it up really badly. Those movements are very clear to spy satellites, and informers.

How would you figure that China would perform an amphibious assault of Taiwan without anyone seeing it coming? Did they invent invisibility for a couple hundred thousand troops and associated equipment?

US to bribe/strong arm TSMC/Intel into not building plants in China.

The US can't actually stop TSMC from doing whatever it wants. I suppose Congress could probably pass a law prohibiting Intel from building in China (although I'd be hard pressed to figure out what authority Congress has to do that, not that anyone cares about that sort of thing any more).

US to bribe/strong arm TSMC/Intel into not building plants in China. The US can't actually stop TSMC from doing whatever it wants. I suppose Congress could probably pass a law prohibiting Intel from building in China (although I'd be hard pressed to figure out what authority Congress has to do that, not that anyone cares about that sort of thing any more).

US to bribe/strong arm TSMC/Intel into not building plants in China.

They don't need the authority. They only need the Supreme Court to not do anything to stop them.

When the Republicans get back in. In a landslide. The game will be won. They will own all 3 branches of government and will be able to do absolutely anything they want.

What exactly us the us worried about re China getting advanced chips? Is it really a problem if the latest huwaei phone or TCL TV or Geely car (or even that 737 knockoff they built) has advanced chips in it?

Or is the US concerned about the chips ending up in a Chinese F-35 knockoff or a North Korean ICBM?

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